Dragons Hobbies Forum
Radio Control and Models => Tyco RC => Topic started by: jeffescortlx on March 16, 2012, 14:38:28
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OK so, I see this auction on the hopper, it say's it's missing the remote. No problem for me, I have a spare one laying around.
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Bumper looks a little wonky, couldn't tell if it was just the camera angle, or if it was really broken. Guy only posts one picture, and didn't list any thing wrong about it in the description.
So I send the guy a question about it. I waited a bit, but couldn't wait too long because it was a "buy it now" auction. At that time, I assumed he would of listed any obvious damage, like a broken bumper. So I bought it. But as you can see, the question was sent while it was still active. He keep's on claiming I didn't ask any questions.
Any time I sell something, I at least take 5 minuets to inspect it before I try to get top dollar for it. If he would of done the same he would of saved us both a hassle.
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He never did reply about the bumper being broken.
11 day's after I sent payment, it show's up. And, not only is the bumper broken, but so is the side bumper and roll bar. But, the battery box is covered in acid, and leaked down to the circuit board. It's only good for parts.
Here is the copypasta from our conversation before I made a paypal/ebay protection claim.
Please note it's starts at the bottom and goes to the top.
Dear jeffescortlx,
Again you could of waited for a response if you asked a question. If you leave negative feedback I will leave my reply. I'm sorry
- wagnergoincrazy
Dear wagnergoincrazy,
You only took one picture, it didn't show the damage, and you didn't describe the damage either . How can that be my fault?I'm willing to negotiate to make this right and give you a chance at good feed back. - jeffescortlx
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From: wagnergoincrazy
To: jeffescortlx
Subject: Re: Other: jeffescortlx sent a message about TYCO R/C 1980's Turbo Hopper RARE!! #110828741668
Sent Date: Mar-02-12 18:02:42 PST
Dear jeffescortlx,
I'm sorry you are not happy but I do not accept returns. You purchased the item within the terms. You bought the item based on the picture as listed- wagnergoincrazy
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From: jeffescortlx
To: wagnergoincrazy
Subject: Re: Item I received is not as described: jeffescortlx sent a message about TYCO R/C 1980's Turbo Hopper RARE!! #110828741668
Sent Date: Mar-02-12 18:00:07 PST
Dear wagnergoincrazy,
I did ask you. You didn't respond in time.
Why didn't you list the damage?
It doesn't take an expert to see broken parts and acid damage.
Maybe we could resolve this problem to make both of us happy.
--- On Fri, 3/2/12, eBay Member: wagnergoincrazy <> wrote:
From: eBay Member: wagnergoincrazy <>
Subject: Re: Item I received is not as described: jeffescortlx sent a message about TYCO R/C 1980's Turbo Hopper RARE!! #110828741668
To:
Date: Friday, March 2, 2012, 7:52 PM
Dear jeffescortlx,
Im sorry you could of asked questions before you purchased. I'm not a expert on RC cars just bought it at a market and sold it.
- wagnergoincrazy
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From: jeffescortlx
To: wagnergoincrazy
Subject: Re: Item I received is not as described: jeffescortlx sent a message about TYCO R/C 1980's Turbo Hopper RARE!! #110828741668
Sent Date: Mar-02-12 17:48:46 PST
Dear wagnergoincrazy,
If your the one getting married, then why am I the one getting screwed?
- jeffescortlx
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From: wagnergoincrazy
To: jeffescortlx
Subject: Re: Item I received is not as described: jeffescortlx sent a message about TYCO R/C 1980's Turbo Hopper RARE!! #110828741668
Sent Date: Mar-02-12 17:45:22 PST
Dear jeffescortlx,
I'm sorry I'm getting married and just trying to list things as fast as possible and just answer questions when I get them.
Thanks
Steve
- wagnergoincrazy
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From: jeffescortlx
To: wagnergoincrazy
Subject: Item I received is not as described: jeffescortlx sent a message about TYCO R/C 1980's Turbo Hopper RARE!! #110828741668
Sent Date: Mar-02-12 16:27:46 PST
Dear wagnergoincrazy,
This car has obvious problems that you should of listed. I knew that the 3 lights were broken off from the picture, and that the controller was missing, but the front bumper is broken, side bumper is broken and the roof roll bar that holds the spare tire is broken. Plus the battery compartment is full of battery acid. It is only good for some spare parts and will not work again since the battery terminals are corroded away from leaking battery's. This car is not worth $50. For that price I could of gotten one in much better condition, or even complete with controller. This would of been avoided if you would of taken more then one picture, and spent 5 minuets to inspect it.
- jeffescortlx
I tried to work things out, it went no where so I made a claim. Ebay forced a return on him, so I sent it back. I would of kept it around for parts, but not for $50. The battery acid did too much damage for it to ever run again, but the gears and servo are good.
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Here it is re-listed. Before he revised the item description, he went into a rant bad mouthing me about how whinny I was.
He changed it before I could get a screen shot.
And in my defense, I don't care that it's "used" or show's "wear". But the battery corrosion is a problem, making this good for only parts. And he's falsely advertising it again.
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dang >:( that was really uncalled for sorry you had to go through all that nonsense,looks like a long mess,,thanks for letting us all know
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my honest opinion, not that you asked ;D based on his original description, he did nothing wrong other than not respond to your question. which in that case, you should not bid on the item. you could and should wait as long as it takes to get your questions answered before you bid, regardless of "buy it now". what i see is someone who had an itchy ebay trigger finger, pulled it premature, and got bit. you live, you learn. i know, ive been there. and now you have too :D
his description is purposely vague and he plays dumb. hes lying through omission more or less. how he has 100% feedback with descriptions like that is beyond me. one pic and no details, no deal.
just hit buy it now on this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/TAIYO-JET-HOPPER-BUGGY-1-16-CAR-TURBO-PANTHER-GIG-NIKKO-radio-80-NRFB-MINT-/120872905479?pt=Radio_Control_Vehicles&hash=item1c24962b07#ht_8141wt_1215
and you should be good as long as it makes it to your door ;)
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his description is purposely vague and he plays dumb. hes lying through omission more or less.
How can someone make despetive ad's on ebay and not expect problems?
Does he think the buyers are not going to notice the problems when they get it?
Am I wrong for expecting the seller to list obvious problems?
Yes, I did buy before he replied to the question. It was a bit of a trap, if I wait too long I could loose it. But according to his logic, I need to run down the line, and ask him each and any possible problem that it could have. Instead of just listing the problems up front.
I'd like to here opinions from other people view, so feel free to post them.
And yes, I did see that brand new in box Hopper. If only I was rich.
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"How can someone make despetive ad's on ebay and not expect problems?"
what part of his ad do you feel is deceptive?
"Does he think the buyers are not going to notice the problems when they get it?"
he hopes, yes
"Am I wrong for expecting the seller to list obvious problems?"
yes
"Yes, I did buy before he replied to the question. It was a bit of a trap"
as long as youre aware
"if I wait too long I could loose it."
as youve found, that perspective will only get you burned. there will be more turbo hoppers to come up that light all the green lights. namely pics good enough to form your own opinion of it and the sellers description that matches up. if those things arent satisfied in the auction, then ask questions and dont bid until youve recieved answers you believe are accurate. if not, you now have an email to prove an inaccurate description on the sellers part.
"But according to his logic, I need to run down the line, and ask him each and any possible problem that it could have. Instead of just listing the problems up front."
yep, and thats what makes him a lousy seller
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what part of his ad do you feel is deceptive?
What! Are you kidding me? How about the part where he didn't describe any of the problems it had?
Here is ebay's Selling practices policy
The listing page is where buyers go for most of their information. Information in the listing helps them decide what to buy and what to expect when they get an item. It's important to make sure that the listing is only used to describe the item for sale and to professionally communicate the terms of the sale.
What to do
You're required to:
-Describe only the item you're selling in the listing and the terms of the sale.
-Provide complete and accurate details.
-Specify the condition of the item.
-Describe any defects or flaws???this helps avoid problems or buyer dissatisfaction.
-When selling a used, refurbished, or flawed item, we recommend including pictures of the actual item for sale instead of a stock photo.
He broke ebay's policy.
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well his entire description is this.
"very cool tyco rc turbo hopper" thats true, it is a turbo hopper and they are cool.
"its used" thats obviously true
"it doesnt come with the remote" ok, understood
"takes batteries" oh brilliant filler info, who knew it took batteries? but still true.
"please ask all questions before you buy" oh, heres the one that he will hide behind. this is his safety net. fortunately for you, ebay protects and sides with buyers in most dispute cases.
but the fact is, his description is not making any false or deceptive claims. this is where the lying by omission comes in. he can always plead ignorance. this would also be your indicator to ask questions until any detail missed in his description is answered. and never bid until that is met.
buyer beware, due diligence and all that stuff.
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"please ask all questions before you buy" oh, heres the one that he will hide behind. this is his safety net. fortunately for you, ebay protects and sides with buyers in most dispute cases.
but the fact is, his description is not making any false or deceptive claims. this is where the lying by omission comes in. he can always plead ignorance. this would also be your indicator to ask questions until any detail missed in his description is answered. and never bid until that is met.
buyer beware, due diligence and all that stuff.
I see where you are going with this.
Both you and the seller are saying it's my fault because I did'nt ask and wait for an answer if "is X broken, or Y broken".
But, ebay clearly say's it's the sellers responsibility to "Describe any defects or flaws" and he didn't describe any of the problems.
It just seems like common sense to me. If your selling something & there is something wrong with it, you should make it known so the buyer isn't hit with a surprise. :-\
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well i absolutely agree with you. and it should be common sense. but not if youre trying to be shady. and even though ebay says to describe any flaws, anyone can play dumb and follow it up with "they shouldve asked specific questions, durp!" so that rule is kind of a grey area.
thats where you and your tyco expertise come in. you ask those specific questions you need to know first, and then have the patience and self control to not hit buy it now or even place a bid until you get your answers.
im really not trying to be an asshat to you and its a shame what sellers try to get away with. im just hoping that you wont place all the blame on the seller and not come away from this with a lesson learned. like i said, this happened to me once. once. make this your one time.
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Lesson learned... wagnergoincrazy is shady!
Yes, I should of waited for him to answer any and all questions.
It was wrong on my part for buying as quick as I did. Being a buy-it-now does put pressure on the buyer to not wait around.
But I can say he started it! I still think he should of described the flaws right from the start.
I did find a new Turbo Hopper. This one is cherry, plastic is still glossy with the factory decal still on the bottom. Even came with a remote. Was only $20 more then the one I sent back.
And I'm happy with the seller. He did a great job at taking pic's and describing it, so there were no surprises when it came.
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very nice. theyre still out there. how about some pics? i noticed another shady detail about his auction. to further enhance the idea that you must buy it now, hes definitely listing it for less than the standard week long auction. if i switch between "newly listed" and "ending soonest" his auction is on the first page for both. thats a short auction. thats not against the rules at all either, but it allows him to say he didnt have time to reply to questions before the end of auction.
in the end though you got your money back, a better hopper for marginally more, and you taught him a bit of a lesson. that is ultimately, ebay has the buyers back more so than the sellers. notice his new listing has at least a couple of hints in the description that its a pos.
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Wow. Thanks for posting your story. Always good to learn from other's experience. I'm sorry it happened to you, but at least you walked away with your money back(that is, if you didn't have to pay for the return shipping) and a free lesson. All it cost you was some grief and stress, that's it. Consider yourself lucky man. It could've been worse.
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how about some pics?
The forum upload options seems to be missing (or I don't see it), once that's back I'll post up a pic of the new Turbo Hopper.
But yeah, it worked out ok in the end.
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Wow. Thanks for posting your story. Always good to learn from other's experience. I'm sorry it happened to you, but at least you walked away with your money back(that is, if you didn't have to pay for the return shipping) and a free lesson. All it cost you was some grief and stress, that's it. Consider yourself lucky man. It could've been worse.
Actually ebay paid for the return shipping. And shipping was free for the original auction. So it didn't cost me any thing but time.
Just some aggravation dealing with a seller that thinks it's ok to not let the buyer know about problems.
Lucky for buyers ebay protection is on there side.
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"yep, and thats what makes him a lousy seller"
Um, aren't you supposed to give lousy sellers negative feedback? Isn't the whole point of feedback??? I don't know how negative feedback got to be such a big faux pas, but people are SOOO much nicer to eBay sellers than retail stores. In retail, people are so quick to pump out bad reviews. I just got back from a bar I've frequented for years, tonight they were advertising specials on "domestics", but when I got the bill I found out that "domestics" only applies to 4 light beers, not the other 50 U.S. brewed beers they have on tap. All of the people at my table agreed that I should put a bad review on every site possible and call the BBB (one guy half-jokingly suggested I sue for false advertising), but these same people have eaten bad eBay deals because they were too afraid of pissing off a seller. If I sell something on eBay, I go out of my way to list defects because I know if there is a dispute, the odds are usually in the buyer's favor.
I was looking at that auction after it was relisted, and my first reaction was the buyer was expecting perfection, but after I found this post, I agree that there were WAY too many things wrong for the seller to play dumb. At the very least, my feedback would have been Neutral with a little message: "Beware, seller is either too busy or sleazy to list defects. You will be disappointed, guaranteed."
While I admit that I was on the fence on this one as far as placing blame, after checking eBay's policy the seller obviously appears at fault, and if eBay paid for your return it sounds like they agree. Stussels, it sounds like your only definition of being deceptive would be if you bought a Turbo Hopper and got a dead octopus. Again, I can't say who was right or wrong, but eBay is known for protecting buyers, as buyers are it's lifeblood, and I'd be willing to bet that your "one-time-lesson" could have been resolved through eBay buyer protection.
Just my 2 cents.
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well i dont believe i ever said anything about what kind of feedback to leave for the transaction. im simply trying to point out that when youre buying 20 year old used stuff online, if all of your questions arent answered through the description or pics before bidding youre asking to be letdown. youre choosing to put yourself in a position to be possibly taken. would ebay have covered my one time lesson? probably, but i dont want to rely on ebay to cover what i can avoid myself through simply making good choices and having self control. ive been an ebay buyer and seller for over 12 years. i have 100% feedback. ebay your way but i prefer to avoid disputes.
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The bottom line is, ebay has a policy that say:
"Describe any defects or flaws???this helps avoid problems or buyer dissatisfaction"
He did'nt do that, at all. Or even make an attempt to.
I was'nt expecting a new car to show up at my door. Just one that was'nt a parts only buggy.
nixzero, did the bar adjust the price to match the advertised price?
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:o Can't believe this post grew to be so big, bust out the reading glasses fellas... :-[
First off, Stussels, I hope I didn't come across like I was singling you out. I'm far too new to this forum to start arguments with people, especially after returning from a bar with a good buzz! Truth be told, I was completely siding with you when I first read this thread. I completely agree that it pays to be an informed consumer and to practice patience and good communication when buying. eBay's been good to me, but I, too, have been burned, so I try to keep pretty low expectations and make no assumptions. My last batch of Tycos were a lil more beat up than described, but since I feared/expected the worst, all I could say was "Score! No missing parts, no corrosion, and decent rubber!!".
I only chimed in after hitting the bar since it was so surreal comparing that experience to eBay. I know that sellers are going to emphasize the good and downplay the bad, but downplaying and omitting faults are 2 different things, and I think it's unrealistic to expect every buyer to have to dig for an item's defects as it should be clearly outlined in the description. We may just disagree here, but I feel that if eBay states that sellers should list all defects in their policy, it should be adhered to. If a seller says they didn't notice a defect, that's a poor excuse, they should've learned their product before they tried to peddle it. You may not be relying on eBay to protect you, but others are, and eBay makes a big deal out of making buyers comfortable. I, too, have been buying and selling on eBay for 12 years and have 100% feedback, and I've worked for and ran several different eBay based businesses ranging from bulk reselling to dropoff centers to supplementing retail sales, all of which had perfect or near-perfect scores. But that means a lot less to me knowing the seller in this transaction also has 100% feedback, despite being obviously shady by my standards. It's as if you, me and this other seller all got As on our report cards despite the seller not doing his homework and possibly cheating. How are buyers supposed to realistically compare sellers if they all have perfect scores?
This transaction may be a bad example, as my problem lies not so much in how sellers should disclose things, but the fact that leaving negative feedback is such a terrible thing. Most retail consumers are prone to write bad reviews for bad businesses than to write good reviews for good ones. It's a horrible trap for a lot of small businesses, they'll get 100 customers one day, and 99 of them will be satisfied, but they'll login to Yelp and only see the 1 bad review. With eBay, feedback is encouraged for every transaction, so a single bad review gets drowned out more easily, but it shatters the seller's perfect 100% rating. I've seen a lot of similar posts lately where buyers are fretting over leaving negative feedback, and I guess I would prefer if people were a little more honest/brutal/direct in leaving scores and comments. You don't see near as many threads where people are debating on whether to leave a bad review for a retail business, in fact I tried looking and all I found were people asking how to ruin them (BBB, Yelp, boycotts, etc.)! Maybe the problem is that negative feedback taints the seller's rep more than it should. Maybe a 1-10 rating system as opposed to a Good-Bad_Neutral system would give buyers AND sellers more room to be honest without being too damaging? (8 out of 10, retail box was damaged due to poor packing) IMHO, this system of starting everyone off with these perfect scores to defend was necessary in the early days of eBay when consumers were much sketchier about buying online, especially from individuals and not accredited businesses. Heck, when eBay went live in 1995, only a handful of my then classmates had computers at home, and even fewer had internet access.
OMG as if this post isn't long enough... Jeff, as for the bar, the server was very apologetic, and she did mention that Sam Adam's is a craft beer, but I ordered it anyway as I didn't assume that being a "craft beer" affected it's domestic status (it was under US Beers on the menu). I think they were still $1 off or something so it didn't bother me (beer makes me happy!), but my friend's were still miffed on my behalf and wanted me to make a big stink about it, and I'd say that even further drives my point that consumers in the retail world are pretty ruthless.
Lol, anyone want to publish this book?
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I like beer to. ;D